Survey #1: g17 Shamala

Soifa wrote:The G17 NPC transformation list


Yes that is a tree...crystal ball..telescope... miscellaneous....

These are things you will be able to turn into with the transformation skill, including inanimate objects. As you can see, it includes Gods and Goddesses, major NPCs, Story NPCs, Dragon NPCs, story boss monsters such as Glas and Claimh, and the message board.

I want to know what restrictions, if any, we should place on this skill ICly, as I don't know if you all want about 50 Morrighans running around, or twelve claimh's and maybe 35 Duncans running around Tir Chonaill.

I also wonder if this would change anything for anyone with shifting abilities IC currently, be they simple or not.

It's probably easier to start discussing it now than deal with it when it's here so the members know what to expect.

Soifa and I deemed we want your input on the use of this skill. May I remind everyone that devCat does not always design Mabinogi with RPers in mind, introducing a 'god-mode' we had to battle with rules-wise, having a gen quest that is only ever for one person.

We want your takes on what should be limited of this power, if at all. Or if the power should only be allowed upon request (power appropriate to the character, such as shapeshifters), and what powers would be FEC level.

Instructions:

• Each person is limited to one post until further notice. No quoting. You may edit as many times as you need. Your post must contain your argument. Not a simple "I agree with what X says."
  
• If further instructions are posted, follow those instructions.
  
• Basic rules of respect, but that shouldn't be an issue if you're posting your own opinion on the matter.

I think the inanimate objects part of it could work with illusion magic.

Alright, let me pop open the cork on this Hyubrandy with a wall of text.

Shamala was clearly created with roleplayers in mind. This was evident in it's design, being mostly a cosmetic skill that adds a paltry amount of strength and a decent HP boost both inside and outside of a transformed state. The ability to transform into a myriad of NPCs and characters lends itself appropriate to Machinimas and animations that tell stories, but there is a glaring flaw with it in accordance with our rules.

That being that WE can't actually mimic most of the mainstream NPCs, or play as them due to unintentional bias or inaccuracy. RPS encourages individualism in the form of fan characters, not canon OC characters.

This is where I draw the line on the matter: I don't believe characters should have any express right mimicking NPCs for any reason, even for the sake of joking. The powers should also be limited to characters with that ability to shape shift. This is actually a personal defense for characters like Soifa/Ani, due to the fact that the core mechanism behind their powers is that ability to transform; Soifa into that wide myriad of creatures, Ani into a Lycanthrope. And let's not forget our various Dragons.

Other points to include would be the various FECs that may require (And shamelessly advertising my own pitch here, as Arcy has been a running gag behind the scenes for a while now) representation of certain monsters such as the Arc Lich, who's presence can now be accurately displayed through in game methods for story arcs.

Using it for the purpose of story telling and accurate portrayal of powers? Certainly.

Rampant usage that allows people to throw spin balls on other characters and devolve things into chaos? Not so much. Shamala was probably intended for RPers who don't discriminate against it's usage to play as the canon NPCs, and unless we were going to toe into those boundaries it might be safe to assume it should be left well enough alone. Just my two cents.

I'm sure the quest to get this power will explain a decent rule to how it's used and possibly not abuse-able IG. Though, just speculation, it is an ancient power and maybe it was taken away because people couldn't handle that sort of power. Anyway..


There are at least 2 races that this fully applies to. Although the description of one race was cut of to "foxes only," the original design of kitsune(by my first power request) definitely described just this.

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure that Mara(Or just Soifa) has something similar to this, just the power contained with the hat. So why not extend on the idea of the hat, and make it required that it needs a 'focus item' to tell itself from the real thing? The dream catchers. IG we will be required to be using it to shapeshift, and I'm sure it will explain the purpose for the dream catchers. But since they are used IG for this purpose, just extend that purpose to IC. That's just for the default skill. It should be allowed that they can change the 'focus item' upon request. I know not everyone wants to walk around carrying a webby-stick.


For example, to keep up the illusion that the shapeshifter is the real thing(and doesn't want to blow their cover), a person could have a special necklace or earrings that would be easily overlooked once they do transform. But still be noticeable, oocly, as a focus item.


*Edit 1*
Also, some of the NPCS, and most likely deities, will have to be bought with NX. It wouldn't be fair to the people who waste that money to get them to say they are unable to change in to those people they got. But for the ones that are required NX, they could be purely Requestable in the powers section.

As for changing in to other NPCS, a simple trip to the beauty shop and a change of close could make it happen for most NPCs. So it's not like that isn't possible, anyway.

*Edit 2*

Soifa quote:

Make them visible, or an individual could request a different item be their "dream catcher." Some monsters won't be able to hold said item, which is why a person's dream catcher could be a necklace that does the same thing, that would be wearable on anything.

I think... For people to use this skill ICly, it should have to be approved. Since to learn how to obtain the skill you need to speak to a /certain/ NPC and learn things from her, and considering it's an ancient art, I think it'd be a bit ridiculous if there were 20 characters who all learned it from Shamala. I understand there are other skills you need to learn through NPCs, but none of them are as /specific/ as Transformation Mastery. I personally believe it should be a case by case thing.

Shamala, a quick look at the skill you see that it's not meant for battle. It does very little, it adds 40hp and 6defense while transformed, and it removes the majority of your skills. Not to mention, it occupies your weapon slot. Even the trailer shows that the skill is meant to be a fun activity. Though, in the role playing world this can be a very powerful skill.

Transforming into what-ever you want. From a tiny ant, to a very large dragon, anyone with this power wouldn't have to fight to be unstoppable. It doesn't use mana, and you only have to wait 5 seconds to transform again, while already transformed. Even if we restrict that you can not turn into Canon NPCs, you still have people with the ability to seemingly disappear by turning into a fly, then crushing a building by turning into a dragon, only to disappear again without being caught because their faces were never seen.

Even if the storyline explains how it obtains, by the trailer you can see there is a ton of players having it, as it's probably not meant to be a very important feature of the game, just more fashionogi.

Now, what I propose is rather simply compared to my intro. I think the skill should not exist, and just be used to represent our many shapeshifters and special looking characters. Though, since the player would need a power request to get it, they will have to provide their own weakness. Such as:
-Mana usage.
-A way to force them to de-transform.
-Magical artifact.

Though, if you are looking for a weakness for the actual skill. I would suggest these.
-Mana Usage(By size)
-To obtain they must kill the target(This one is provided by the game, but making it IC would restrict the use of NPCs or canon chars.)
-Dream Catcher can also be used to cancel other's transformation.
-The character must transform back to themselves, before transforming to others.
-The Dream Catchers turn into a weak spot, or way to identify the fake.

One or more of these can be used to restrict the actual skill.

That feel when you type and the browsers crash and eats your words.

Hrmph


Anyway, on alp hats

The Tarnkappe does not change color or shape, only size, when used to transform, and it changes size based on the form. It only goes invisible when cloaked with the hide skill. Typically, the hats can be used when held behind your back, as long as you keep constant contact with it, but it's easiest when it's on the head.

Dreamcatchers, OOC, simply vanish. You no longer hold it while transformed. It causes the transformation, but how do you reverse it, unless we make the dreamcatchers always visible IC in some manner. Ideas on this?Please edit your post accordingly.


When transformed, you can use skills the monster has, such as archery skills in case of goblins, but the ranks of the skills are the same as your rank. Have r1 windmill, become an r1 windmilling golem. I am not sure what skill ranks the mobs normally have, so it's a mixture of your fighting ability and the mobs appearance, along with a boost in HP/def, coupled with the fact that passive defenses from armor and things such as MS and meditation are also still in effect when transformed.

Pinging goblin for the win.

It sure does take the weapon slot..but things you turn into either don't use weapons(golems, rabbits) or you get their weapon when transformed(goblin, shadow skeleton jerks). As seen in this video, instead of a dreamcatcher, they hold the guys sword.

Each creature has a unique transform bonus that can be gained when you transform into that particular creature.



Boxed in red are permanent stats gains when transformed, these comes from marking the creatures in the list, in this case +1 HP.

Boxed in the yellow are activation bonus, it only apply when you transform into THAT creature, in this case +10% HP.

Bonuses are on of these 5: HP, Stamina, Str, Def, Pro.


Apparently if you turn into Nuadha, you get to flap around. Fun fact.


Ending notes: I do agree with Xeek, Hyu, Xenny, and some of what Aura said.

I think the major bosses should only be used in extreme cases, like an end-of-the-world plot kind of thing.

I can see Ethice turning into a bunny.

I'm of the opinion that while it does affect your skills we should treat it as if it doesn't. That is to say,, we treat shape-shifting as if it only affects outward appearance. Not size or stature or powers. Just appearance. Sort of like when someone is using the Hide skill. So someone could shape-shift into a Dragon to try to intimidate someone, but they couldn't, for example, crush a building, because they are still only human/elf/giant sized. Or someone could shape-shift into a bug, but they wouldn't be able to fly away and if they weren't careful people might bump into them. So while it might be a useful tool for a spy (no one ever suspects the crystal ball of listening in) it probably wouldn't be good for anyone else. Because it's pretty easy to disprove whether someone is Duncan or Morrighan or whoever.

As to the Dreamcatcher issue, I think that we should teat it as if it doesn't vanish. Whoever's shape-shifted is still holding it. it just doesn't look like they are because they look like a puppet or a fox or whatever.

Peldari, the main issue everyone has with this skill is that someone could use to transform into a guard or something to do evil things :3...

Although, considering Xenny's blind, should I really be worrying about this? She'll never be able to do it let alone notice if people look a little different. I doubt the transformation will cover how you smell. Which brings me to a good point, maybe we should make stuff the transformation doesn't cover. Like, since it's only an outside change, maybe it doesn't change how your voice sounds or how you smell?

Xenny wrote:Peldari, the main issue everyone has with this skill is that someone could use to transform into a guard or something to do evil things :3...

No, I got that. But the characters who are good won't. And the characters who are evil are going to do evil things anyway. And this way the playing field is level. One guard might be a grossly over-powered villain in disguise who can massacre the other guards and kill the king. Unless one of those other guards is a grossly over-powered hero in disguise protecting the king. Obviously there'd have to be some regulations.If someone was going to do something big and drastic that would have an effect on all of Erinn (or even permanently change one town) they'd need to run it by the story coordinators first.

Survey of your own opinions, please. And Pel, 1 post per person atm. Please keep this in mind so I don't have to get tough on people.

Trying to not have this bogged down with discussion until we feel the need to open it up. That used to cause a lot of issues with actually finding important things when we needed to reference them. Please, again, keep this in mind while looking at the surveys.

I dont believe we should allow this power to come into our own rp universe, itll just lead to problems in the long run.

However, a power like this does come up in Rick Riordan's Heroes of Olympus series, he manages to balance it by giving the character a giant flaw. He can transform at will, but his life force is tied to a piece of firewood that can catch fire at any point regardless the temperature if the user thinks about fire or panics.

This ability would have to be insanely powered down and offered to only Tuathans not millitians.
The reasoning behind that comes from IF it is a power, that character must be taken care off immediately.

Basically users of this power need to sign a death waver.

That's just my two cents though.

Apologies. Realized I made an error before:

Xenny, also please make sure to follow the 1 post per person rule. Sorry. I'm an equal opportunity stick-in-the-mud. I'm also human and sometimes make mistakes like missing things like that. |o/

Does anyone else have opinions on this matter?

I suppose I can throw in a bit.

I think this would open a TON of creativity realms, but a lot has to be limited. Granted if suddenly everyone can shapeshift ever, it really takes away from the RP experience in my opinion, and overall shapeshifting in any form should STILL require a power request, lest it's covered in a power template. That's my thoughts on that. Also, having mentoring finished would be required too.

Little things: I think external shape would definately change, as it already does, but smell likely wouldn't. Voice could change though, since different form would mean different voice box. I have Glacikitty form sounding like Navi from LoZ already, because I imagine tiny kitty voice would sound like that. But I think voice is also very dependent on the RPer as well, it's their character, their voice.

For the dreamcatcher ICly thing, I think it would disappear, like being consumed to hold the transformation in place for people who use it as such. However, as most of the curent transformations are, I think if anything it'd be an OOC tool for those who can already change without needing one ICly. It helps with us who can already change forms show it without needing to use a pet or other method (I use a lava cat robe).

Anyways, those are my thoughts. It is a vast cast of things to change into, and I think suddenly all these people being able to change would certainly be strange, and if we don't need approvals, I would imagine some detransformation magic would need to be made for law enforcement as people could just do something bad, transform and run away, and no one would ever know what they looked like out of the transformation.

As it's been 24 hours since the last official request for other opinions, I'd like to take this time to instruct the following:

Instructions: We will now allow each individual to rebut two, count them, two, prior post. You will be allowed to point out up to 2 flaws with said post. You are limited to about 3-4 sentences to round out your thoughts. I feel that should be enough. PM me, if you feel you need more space.

I'm limiting the number of sentences so it is more a logistical rebuttle than what could be taken as an attack on someone's opinion. So please, follow the set guidelines about.

Basic rules of respect to the other person and their idea apply.

I will respond to Glacia's post, things highlighted in green I agree with, so I will not mention them. Plus I fixed a typo. Red and purple are my responses.

Glaceon wrote:I suppose I can throw in a bit.

I think this would open a TON of creativity realms, but a lot has to be limited. Granted if suddenly everyone can shapeshift ever, it really takes away from the RP experience in my opinion, and overall shapeshifting in any form should STILL require a power request, lest it's covered in a power template. That's my thoughts on that. Also, having mentoring finished would be required too.

Little things: I think external shape would definitely change, as it already does, but smell likely wouldn't. Voice could change though, since different form would mean different voice box. I have Glacikitty form sounding like Navi from LoZ already, because I imagine tiny kitty voice would sound like that. But I think voice is also very dependent on the RPer as well, it's their character, their voice.

For the dreamcatcher ICly thing, I think it would disappear, like being consumed to hold the transformation in place for people who use it as such. However, as most of the current transformations are, I think if anything it'd be an OOC tool for those who can already change without needing one ICly. It helps with us who can already change forms show it without needing to use a pet or other method (I use a lava cat robe).
The problem with that is..if you use it to transform..how do you use it to END the transformation? The loss of the focus item is just..odd, however, as I agree with each person having to request overall shapeshifting, they could all choose their focus item, similar to Soifa's hat, only she didn't really get to choose that.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. It is a vast cast of things to change into, and I think suddenly all these people being able to change would certainly be strange, and if we don't need approvals, I would imagine some detransformation magic would need to be made for law enforcement as people could just do something bad, transform and run away, and no one would ever know what they looked like out of the transformation.

@blue: If there is a visible focus item, it could be something to do with that, otherwise I got no suggestions for that idea.

I will now respond to Teo's post.

..well..part of it.

Teoxihuitl wrote:

This ability would have to be insanely powered down and offered to only Tuathans not millitians.
The reasoning behind that comes from IF it is a power, that character must be taken care off immediately. If you put obvious flaws and heavy limitations on the skill, it really shouldn't be Tuathan only, Milletians can be stopped with the use of guards and their soul stones, being imprisoned for however-long-their-crime-dictates. Of course, if people be mean and break laws outside of towns, regardless of powers, we can't do TOO much about it unless the victims report it....

Basically users of this power need to sign a death waver.

That's just my two cents though.

Apologies to Dell if you meant only 3-4 sentences for the entire response to both posts, I took it as 3-4 per response.

I also do not count these extra information sentences as the limit sentences, if I'm wrong, shoot me. <3

Soifa wrote:
The problem with that is..if you use it to transform..how do you use it to END the transformation? The loss of the focus item is just..odd, however, as I agree with each person having to request overall shapeshifting, they could all choose their focus item, similar to Soifa's hat, only she didn't really get to choose that.

If it's per request, and the focus item is implemented, then each individual would be able to choose how to un-transform as well. After a few requests, I'm sure a 'standard' could be found. But it's not like people couldn't request similar things that work, to make the power go over smoother.

A small suggestion: Why don't we wait a few to see what light does the new generation shine on the power? Maybe we'll have to adjust it less than we have to.

Glacia(And others with the same opinion) wrote: Little things: I think external shape would definitely change, as it already does, but smell likely wouldn't.

My only problem with shape changing shape, and not smell, is that certain textures give of a certain smell. It also gives power sniffers(animal humanoids) an upperhand on detecting over anyone else, and a way to power play(not saying people -will-, just saying people -can-.)

Spoiler:

Though, I still believe that the skill should not be given IC, instead letting people request it with their own restrictions.

I have opinions on this, but I feel like I should reserve judgement until I get all the information that comes with the gen coming out.
So I will.

Edit: NOW THAT I HAVE PLAYED THE EVENT

You can only get something's shape, by killing it 5 times at least.
So, sticking to that rule, there is no way for people to change in to other people.
So I think this skill is NOT A PROBLEM and everyone should CHILL.

Council made a point when ironing this out. After everyone has gotten a chance to work with the mechanic, do any opinions change? Is there anything people would like to clarify.

1 post, same rules as before. |o/

I think the other limits they put on are also good, such as being unable to use the skill indoors.

However, seeing as the higher ranks have some bizarre changes, I for one think the ability as a whole should still be a power request in it's own right. Aside from those who can shapeshift/transform already (Largely the animal hybrids/Alp), it is giving a lot of power overall over one's shape.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while transformed, you are unable to use things like magic, ranged, etc etc. So simply changing into say a sprite, doesn't do you much good as all you can do is attack and defend, normal attack that is. (No Smash or Counter.)

Just my thoughts and stuff.

EDIT: In response to a certain thing....I have this picture. I think that's still FAIRLY BIG....

Spoiler:

To Dalvar's Reply:

That aside, after playing it I still stand by some of what I've said/what's been said in here. Requesting it shouldn't be too difficult to get approved, since there's several ways that I can think of someone having the ability to transform. And it's probably the most simple/clean way to do it. I still think a person should have a focus item, dreamcatcher or whatever they request to change it to IC. And even in those altered forms, they should have the focus item. Or, in some way, marks them as not being 'real.' I know that for r9 antlion is much bigger in transformation, than the little bug that you hunt down. Things like that.


I don't think the "npcs transformations" should be ruled out all together though. Since the features of the npcs aren't exclusive to one person, a person to person transformation could be requested like the scenario I mentioned in the spoiler, or just a 'transformation' in to different features. Not to the NPC, but happen to maybe look similar to someone else in the world. It's not too uncommon, I see doppels of people all the time. (I just woke up, so does this make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly.)

I know what you're saying Aura. Anyone could get pink hair and teal eyes and look like (default) Soifa, even non-elves since we have wigs that are dyeable, plus Milletians CAN be killed multiple times.


I think it should be per request, with the requester saying how it works for them, similar to how each person requests different things for Demigod. They would, as with usual powers, explain how it works and the weaknesses and whatnot. That's my vote.

So upon doing more research on the skill, playing with it, having fun, dancing, pulling my hair out trying to get the transformation, I've changed my opinion. While I no longer believe it should not be requested, I believe certain things should be nerfed/changed.

-You need to kill 5+ times in order to obtain a transformation.*
-When you transform, you turn into a tiny version of the monster. (ie. Basilisk = tiny basilisk)*
-Transformations should take mana upon transforming, and low amount of stamina per second of being transformed.
-We should allow skills being used during the transformation, but they'll be weakened due to being in a 'strange body'/ the energy wasted being transformed. Those that can do advance magic without wands will no longer be able to, while transformed.
-Powerful requested powers will not be able during transformation.
-You can not jump from transformation to transformation, you must return to your normal state before detransforming.
-You inherit some of the properties of the animal you transform into(Ie. Ants are squishy, birds fly, fish swim).

*These are things already provided by the game.

I may add more if I think of them, but I believe this is a very fair change to the skill.